Of Accurate Building Inspectors. ], Test the outer edges of what you think you know. Like, the tree was, like, already doing that stuff by itself, but it's the fungus that's doing that stuff? And again. JAD: And to Annie McEwen and Brenna Farrow who both produced this piece. So the roots can go either left or to the right. Well, I created these horrible contraptions. It's okay, puppy. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, we turn our brain-centered worldview on its head through a series of clever experiments that show plants doing things we never would've imagined. ROBERT: She determined that you can pick a little computer fan and blow it on a pea plant for pretty much ever and the pea plant would be utterly indifferent to the whole thing. So it's predicting something to arrive. Then she takes the little light and the little fan and moves them to the other side of the plant. They learned something. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, I know. So light is -- if you shine light on a plant you're, like, feeding it? Because I have an appointment. And lignin is full of nitrogen, but also compounds like nitrogen is important in DNA, right? Yeah. That was my reaction. ROBERT: Packets of minerals. [laughs] When I write a blog post, my posts that get the least traffic guaranteed are the plant posts. It's like a savings account? ROBERT: The Ubells see this happening all the time. We are the principals of Accurate Building Inspectors of Brooklyn, New York. And we can move it up, and we can drop it. And the plant still went to the place where the pipe was not even in the dirt? So this is our plant dropper. And the -- I'm gonna mix metaphors here, the webs it weaves. ROBERT: Oh, so this is, like, crucial. She thinks that they somehow remembered all those drops and it never hurt, so they didn't fold up any more. No. Is your dog objecting to my analysis? It's condensation. Again, science writer Jennifer Frazer. ROBERT: But after five days, she found that 80% of the time, the plants went -- or maybe chose -- to head toward the dry pipe that has water in it. But it didn't happen. And then I needed to -- the difficulty I guess, of the experiment was to find something that will be quite irrelevant and really meant nothing to the plant to start with. If I want to be a healthy tree and reach for the sky, then I need -- I need rocks in me somehow. ROBERT: Eventually, she came back after ROBERT: And they still remembered. Me first. ROBERT: Let us say you have a yard in front of your house. Sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh. JAD: So we're up to experiment two now, are we not? But it was originally done with -- with a dog. ALVIN UBELL: And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. JAD: So you couldn't replicate what she saw. They're one of our closest relatives, actually. We were waiting for the leaves to, you know, stop folding. These guys are actually doing it." So they just went right for the MP3 fake water, not even the actual water? Exactly. No. ROBERT: Truth is, I think on this point she's got a -- she's right. It seems like a no-brainer to me (pardon the unintentional pun) that they would have some very different ways of doing things similar to what animals do. I don't know if that was the case for your plants. I mean, I -- it's a kind of Romanticism, I think. ROBERT: Apparently, bears park themselves in places and grab fish out of the water, and then, you know, take a bite and then throw the carcass down on the ground. ROBERT: Sounds, yeah. 36:59. On our knees with our noses in the ground, and we can't see anything. Now, it turns out that they're networked, and together they're capable of doing things, of behaviors, forestrial behaviors, that are deeply new. But what I do know is that the fact that the plant doesn't have a brain doesn't -- doesn't a priori says that the plants can't do something. No, I guess that I feel kind of good to say this. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: Our staff includes Simon Adler, Brenna Farrow, David Gebel. So here's what she did. And is it as dramatic in the opposite direction? So I think what she would argue is that we kind of proved her point. They can also send warning signals through the fungus. And I mean, like, really loved the outdoors. ROBERT: And for the meat substitute, she gave each plant little bit of food. They don't do well in warm temperatures and their needles turn all sickly yellow. And so they have this trading system with trees. They just don't like to hear words like "mind" or "hear" or "see" or "taste" for a plant, because it's too animal and too human. So that's where these -- the scientists from Princeton come in: Peter, Sharon and Aatish. That's the place where I remember things. ROBERT: And I met a plant biologist who's gonna lead that parade. For this part of our broadcast, I'd like to begin by imagining a tall, dark, dense, green forest. JAD: So you couldn't replicate what she saw. Did Jigs emerge? Couple minutes go by And all of a sudden we could hear this barking and yelping. That is definitely cool. Robert Krulwich. It spits out the O2. Listen to this episode from Radiolab: Viper Members on Spotify. In a tangling of spaghetti-like, almost a -- and each one of those lines of spaghetti is squeezing a little bit. Actually that's good advice for anyone. ROBERT: Then she placed the fan right next to the light so that MONICA GAGLIANO: The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. Give it to the new -- well, that's what she saying. So the deer's like, "Oh, well. If you get too wrapped up in your poetic metaphor, you're very likely to be misled and to over-interpret the data. They play with sound and story in a way that's incredibly intriguing, I was instantly hooked with More Perfect. MONICA GAGLIANO: So, you know, I'm in the dark. They sort of put them all together in a dish, and then they walked away. And what she discovered is that all these trees, all these trees that were of totally different species were sharing their food underground. They're switched on. And then Monica would Just about, you know, seven or eight inches. No, Summer is a real person and her last name happens to be spelled R-A-Y-N-E. ROBERT: This story was nurtured and fed and ultimately produced by Annie McEwen. JENNIFER FRAZER: But no, they're all linked to each other! Yeah, plants really like light, you know? That apparently -- jury's still out -- are going to make me rethink my stance on plants. The magnolia tree outside of our house got into the sewer pipes, reached its tentacles into our house and busted the sewage pipe. ROBERT: And the salivation equivalent was the tilt of the plant? The same one that are used in computers like, you know, really tiny. SUZANNE SIMARD: When I was a little kid, I would be in the forest and I'd just eat the forest floor. ROBERT: [laughs] You mean, like the World Wide Web? Pics! ROBERT: A tree needs something else. So I'd seal the plant, the tree in a plastic bag, and then I would inject gas, so tagged with a -- with an isotope, which is radioactive. You got the plant to associate the fan with food. Gone. Well, let us say you have a yard in front of your house. So they didn't. Can you -- will you soften your roots so that I can invade your root system?" ", So the deer's like, "Oh, well. ROBERT: In the Richard Attenborough version, if you want to look on YouTube, he actually takes a nail RICHARD ATTENBOROUGH: This pin will give you an idea. And I know lots of kids do that, but I was especially ROBERT: I'm sorry? Her use of metaphor. I'm a research associate professor at the University of Sydney. But it was originally done with -- with a dog. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. SUZANNE SIMARD: Where we've all been, you know, doing our daily business. I'm 84. Actually, Monica's dog leads perfectly into her third experiment, which again will be with a plant. MONICA GAGLIANO: Picasso! Eventually over a period of time, it'll crack the pipe like a nutcracker. My name is Monica Gagliano. Do you really need a brain to sense the world around you? Today, Robert drags Jad along ona parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. Jad and Robert, they are split on this one. Take it. People speculated about this, but no one had actually proved it in nature in the woods until Suzanne shows up. I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. Smarty Plants by Radiolab | Podchaser Episode from the podcast Radiolab Next Episode Smarty Plants Released Wednesday, 14th February 2018 3 people rated this episode About Insights Pro Reviews Creators 9 Lists 1 Do you really need a brain to sense the world around you? ROBERT: So the plants are now, you know, buckled in, minding their own business. SUZANNE SIMARD: Like, nitrogen and phosphorus. ROBERT: Okay. And they still remembered. They learned something. So there's an oak tree right there. Kind of even like, could there be a brain, or could there be ears or, you know, just sort of like going off the deep end there. ROBERT: And right in the middle of the yard is a tree. Or even learn? And then all of a sudden, she says she looks down into the ground and she notices all around them where the soil has been cleared away there are roots upon roots upon roots in this thick, crazy tangle. And remember, if you're a springtail, don't talk to strange mushrooms. So we know that Douglas fir will take -- a dying Douglas fir will send carbon to a neighboring Ponderosa pine. And why would -- why would the fungi want to make this network? JAD: The part where the water pipe was, the pipe was on the outside of the pot? SUZANNE SIMARD: Jigs emerged. ROBERT: A little while back, I had a rather boisterous conversation with these two guys. ROBERT: Like, would they figure it out faster this time? And if you go to too many rock concerts, you can break these hairs and that leads to permanent hearing loss, which is bad. So she decided to conduct her experiment. If the -- if the tube system is giving the trees the minerals, how is it getting it, the minerals? Right? This feels one of those experiments where you just abort it on humanitarian grounds, you know? They can also send warning signals through the fungus. Today, Robert drags Jad along ona parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. MONICA GAGLIANO: Again, if you imagine that the pot, my experimental pot. I'm 84. Then we actually had to run four months of trials to make sure that, you know, that what we were seeing was not one pea doing it or two peas, but it was actually a majority. A plant that is quite far away from the actual pipe. MONICA GAGLIANO: Would the plant do the same? JAD: What is the tree giving back to the fungus? Was it possible that maybe the plants correctly responded by not opening, because something really mad was happening around it and it's like, "This place is not safe.". She made sure that the dirt didn't get wet, because she'd actually fastened the water pipe to the outside of the pot. And so we, you know, we've identified these as kind of like hubs in the network. Like, how can a plant -- how does a plant do that? And might as well start the story back when she was a little girl. Apparently, she built some sort of apparatus. And I mean, like, really loved the outdoors. LATIF: It's like a bank? The glass is not broken. Thanks to Jennifer Frazer who helped us make sense of all this. So what does the tree do? Yeah. Super interesting how alive our plants really are! -- they spring way up high in the air. It's time -- time for us to go and lie down on the soft forest floor. ALVIN UBELL: The glass is not broken. You know, it goes back to anthropomorphizing plant behaviors. She's done three experiments, and I think if I tell you about what she has done, you -- even you -- will be provoked into thinking that plants can do stuff you didn't imagine, dream they could do. ANNIE: Yeah. JENNIFER FRAZER: The fungus has this incredible network of tubes that it's able to send out through the soil, and draw up water and mineral nutrients that the tree needs. And every day that goes by, I have less of an issue from the day before. ROBERT: Actually, Monica's dog leads perfectly into her third experiment, which again will be with a plant. He's got lots of questions about her research methods, but really his major complaint is -- is her language. Or at the time actually, she was a very little girl who loved the outdoors. It's about how plants learn, or adapt, or even listen, the way humans do (though scientists really don't seem to know how). She actually trained this story in a rather elaborate experimental setup to move away from the light and toward a light breeze against all of its instincts. LATIF: It's like Snow White and The Seven Tubes or something. Yours is back of your house, but let's make it in the front. MONICA GAGLIANO: Like a defensive mechanism. I've been looking around lately, and I know that intelligence is not unique to humans. And I do that in my brain. But let me just -- let me give it a try. And then I would cover them in plastic bags. Fan first, light after. No question there. I wanted to talk to them because, as building inspectors they -- there's something they see over and over and over. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information int You got the plant to associate the fan with food. I mean, what? I think you can be open-minded but still objective. ROBERT: She says we now know that trees give each other loans. So if all a tree could do was split air to get carbon, you'd have a tree the size of a tulip. They curve, sometimes they branch. ROBERT: And the idea was, she wanted to know like, once the radioactive particles were in the tree, what happens next? And she wondered whether that was true. JENNIFER FRAZER: The whole thing immediately closes up and makes it look like, "Oh, there's no plant here. One time, the plant literally flew out of the pot and upended with roots exposed. Yeah, it might run out of fuel. And they still remembered. And I remember it was Sunday, because I started screaming in my lab. Exactly. ROBERT: And for the meat substitute, she gave each plant little bit of food. Fan, light, lean. We are the principals of Accurate Building Inspectors of Brooklyn, New York. ROBERT: I don't think Monica knows the answer to that, but she does believe that, you know, that we humans MONICA GAGLIANO: We are a little obsessed with the brain. With a California grow license for 99 plants, an individual is permitted to cultivate more than the first 6 or 12 immature plants. You have to understand that the cold water pipe causes even a small amount of water to condense on the pipe itself. I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. So, okay. Oh, one more thing. There are multiple ways of doing one thing, right? SUZANNE SIMARD: Well, when I was a kid, my family spent every summer in the forest. Are you, like, aggressively looking around for -- like, do you wake up in the morning saying, "Now what can I get a plant to do that reminds me of my dog, or reminds me of a bear, or reminds me of a bee?". Peering down at the plants under the red glow of her headlamp. ROBERT: But she's got a little red headlamp on. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, I know. Image credits: Photo Credit: Flickred! And the fungus actually builds a tunnel inside the rock. Because after dropping them 60 times, she then shook them left to right and they instantly folded up again. And so we're digging away, and Jigs was, you know, looking up with his paws, you know, and looking at us, waiting. Fan first, light after. And the salivation equivalent was the tilt of the plant? Coming up on the Plant Parade, we get to the heart -- or better yet, the root -- of a very specific type of plant. ROBERT: Huh. She's not gonna use hot water because you don't want to cook your plants, you know? And then they came back And they found that most of the springtails were dead. April 8, 2018 By thelandconnection. And I do that in my brain. Imagine towering trees to your left and to your right. ROBERT: And then she waited a few more days and came back. They still did not close when she dropped them. ROBERT: So you are related and you're both in the plumbing business? 37 minutes Posted Jul 8, 2021 at 7:35 am. So we went back to Monica. ROBERT: What happened to you didn't happen to us. They don't do well in warm temperatures and their needles turn all sickly yellow. And while it took us a while to see it, apparently these little threads in the soil. JAD: From just bears throwing fish on the ground? Like, the plant is hunting? They somehow have a dye, and don't ask me how they know this or how they figured it out, but they have a little stain that they can put on the springtails to tell if they're alive or dead. That's what she says. Also thanks to Christy Melville and to Emerald O'Brien and to Andres O'Hara and to Summer Rayne. If you look at a root under a microscope, what you see is all these thousands of feelers like hairs on your head looking for water. JAD: Well, okay. They still did not close when she dropped them. Okay? ROBERT: She took that notion out of the garden into her laboratory. It involves a completely separate organism I haven't mentioned yet. Actually that's good advice for anyone. We showed one of these plants to him and to a couple of his colleagues, Sharon De La Cruz ROBERT: Because we wanted them to help us recreate Monica's next experiment. LARRY UBELL: Yes, we are related. Walker Wolff. ROBERT: But once again I kind of wondered if -- since the plant doesn't have a brain or even neurons to connect the idea of light and wind or whatever, where would they put that information? And so the whole family and uncles and aunts and cousins, we all rush up there. Little fan goes on, the light goes on. We waiting for the leaves to, you know, stop folding. They have to -- have to edit in this together. In the podcast episode Smarty Plants, the hosts talk about whether or not you need a brain to sense the world around you; they shared a few different anecdotes, . I go out and I thought there's no one here on Sunday afternoon. And for the meat substitute, she gave each plant little bit of food. ROBERT: I don't think Monica knows the answer to that, but she does believe that, you know, that we humans MONICA GAGLIANO: We are a little obsessed with the brain. The Ubells see this happening all the time. These guys are actually doing it." And this is what makes it even more gruesome. They run out of energy. ROBERT: Now the plants if they were truly dumb, they'd go 50/50. JENNIFER FRAZER: Plants are really underrated. JAD: This -- this actually happened to me. ROBERT: I know -- I know you -- I know you don't. So the fungus is giving the tree the minerals. ROBERT: Actually, Monica's dog leads perfectly into her third experiment, which again will be with a plant. JAD: Coming up on the Plant Parade, we get to the heart -- or better yet, the root -- of a very specific type of plant. I can scream my head off if I want to. ROBERT: Special thanks to Dr. Teresa Ryan of the University of British Columbia, Faculty of Forestry, to our intern Stephanie Tam, to Roy Halling and the Bronx Botanical Garden, and to Stephenson Swanson there. That is definitely cool. This story JAD: You'll get your sound at some point. ANNIE: But I wonder if her using these metaphors ANNIE: is perhaps a very creative way of looking at -- looking at a plant, and therefore leads her to make -- make up these experiments that those who wouldn't think the way she would would ever make up. Ring, meat, eat. So you can get -- anybody can get one of these plants, and we did. All right, my hypothesis is that what happens is You got somewhere to go? And the tubes branch and sometimes they reconnect. Let him talk. No, it's far more exciting than that. ROBERT: Ring, meat, eat. It's okay, puppy. We dropped. I mean, I think there's something to that. The fungi, you know, after it's rained and snowed and the carcass has seeped down into the soil a bit, the fungi then go and they drink the salmon carcass down and then send it off to the tree. And she goes into that darkened room with all the pea plants. Why waste hot water? She says a timber company would move in and clear cut an entire patch of forest, and then plant some new trees. Well, I have one thing just out of curiosity As we were winding up with our home inspectors, Alvin and Larry Ubell, we thought maybe we should run this metaphor idea by them. The bell, the meat and the salivation. Just the sound of it? Jigs is in trouble!" ROBERT: That is actually a clue in what turns out to be a deep, deep mystery. They still remembered. So you're like a metaphor cop with a melty heart. There's this whole other world right beneath my feet. And so we are under the impression or I would say the conviction that the brain is the center of the universe, and -- and if you have a brain and a nervous system you are good and you can do amazing stuff. Yes, we don't normally ascribe intelligence to plants, and plants are not thought to have brains. The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. In my brain. He shoves away the leaves, he shoves away the topsoil. JENNIFER FRAZER: Into which she put these sensitive plants. ROBERT: So they followed the sound of the barking and it leads them to an outhouse. Here's the water.". But then, scientists did an experiment where they gave some springtails some fungus to eat. ROBERT: And when you measure them, like one study we saw found up to seven miles of this little threading JAD: What is this thing? So she's got her plants in the pot, and we're going to now wait to see what happens. Because tree roots and a lot of plant roots are not actually very good at doing what you think they're doing. [laughs]. And what a tree needs are minerals. But it didn't happen. It was a simple little experiment. PETER LANDGREN: Look at that. And so why is that? Does it threaten your sense of humanity that you depend for pretty much every single calorie you eat on a plant? I mean, I think there's something to that. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of Science and Technology in the modern world. So the -- this branching pot thing. On one side, instead of the pipe with water, she attaches an MP3 player with a little speaker playing a recording of ROBERT: And then on the other side, Monica has another MP3 player with a speaker. MONICA GAGLIANO: I wonder if that was maybe a bit too much. ROBERT: And when you look at the map, what you see are circles sprouting lines and then connecting to other circles also sprouting lines. So the question is MONICA GAGLIANO: A plant that is quite far away from the actual pipe, how does it know which way to turn and grow its roots so that it can find the water? And the pea plants are left alone to sit in this quiet, dark room feeling the breeze. ROBERT: That is actually a clue in what turns out to be a deep, deep mystery. And every day that goes by, I have less of an issue from the day before. This is by the way, what her entire family had done, her dad and her grandparents. That's okay. Transcript. LINCOLN TAIZ: Yes. They can't photosynthesize. Oh, yeah. ROBERT: And then those little tubes will wrap themselves into place. That was my reaction. The point here is that the scale of this is so vast, and we didn't know this until very, very recently. Also thanks to Christy Melville and to Emerald O'Brien and to Andres O'Hara and to Summer Rayne. Wait a second. MONICA GAGLIANO: Light is obviously representing dinner. And so I designed this experiment to figure that out. 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That, but really his major complaint is -- if the tube system giving!
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